Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00 <inaudible>.
Speaker 1 00:08 You are listening to our anxiety stories, the anxiety Canada podcast with John Beekman. Check checkout anxiety, canada.com for more totally free anxiety resources, including our app Mindshift at CBT.
Speaker 2 00:25 Hi Rita. How are you doing?
Speaker 3 00:26 I'm good, John. How are you?
Speaker 2 00:28 I'm doing fine. I'm hanging in there. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 00:31 You've had a long day.
Speaker 2 00:32 Yeah, I mean it's interesting. It's been no longer than any other eight hour day I've worked. Um, it's just, it's, it'll be interesting to monitor my emotions after this, um, to see if they go because, you know, it's been, of course it's, it's like anxiety. It's a roller coaster of emotions.
Speaker 3 00:48 Sure. Is sir. Ed. So we appreciate you doing this for us. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:52 Well that's great and I really appreciate you being on and being a part of it. And, uh, as you may or may not know by now that my first question to you is a Rita, tell us your anxiety story.
Speaker 3 01:03 Yeah. So I, uh, I'm actually a clinical counselor at workplace to be them with, uh, dr Jody Samara and associates. I've been very fortunate to, to use that platform as a therapist over the last 70 years to help people who are also affected with anxiety and, and a panic disorder and, and all of the above. And, um, part of, um, part of my reason for wanting to share my story is because I think it's so important that other Canadians, um, are aware that they're not alone and that they can get help. And so, um, my story started actually when I was in my mid twenties, and I had a panic disorder, very, very severe one that lasted for about 15 years. And, uh, my symptoms ranged from everything from sweating and trembling, shaking. Um, I would, I would have hyperventilation attack, um, nausea, IBS, symptom, dizzy, uh, really, you felt like you were dying and it would, uh, it always would come on right before anticipated family event where I felt where I was gonna be out of control or situations where I really felt powerless.
Speaker 3 02:30 And, uh, so I, I noticed, you know, that the trend was that it was always before a family or, or a work related event or, um, or something were, or an event where I just felt really scared at to attend. And, and it became very problematic. Uh, I experienced it most days for months at a time. It would come on at any time. I would be in the middle of the Christmas party and all of a sudden I could feel like the, the sweat coming down my, and I could feel my, you know, my breathing start to increase and I would be running off to the bathroom before we know it. My husband, I would have to leave more parties and I can tell you, and, and it was last literally half the night where I would be shaking uncontrollably, so, so sick and it really impaired, uh, my, uh, my ability to work. Um, I experienced infertility for about 10 years and I truly believe that my anxiety disorder affected my ability to conceive and, and to be able to, to be healthy. Yeah, I was pretty tough. It really, really difficult. And, you know, I went to the doctor, uh, and I, I remember talking to them about my symptoms and I remember my doctor telling me to go home and drink a glass of orange juice and to just relax. So obviously that didn't <inaudible>
Speaker 2 03:54 I'm not laughing at you, I'm just laughing at the concept of being told to relax and how, and how effective that is.
Speaker 3 04:02 It did not work. And, uh, and you know, at that time, nobody ever explained to me, you know, Rita anxiety can be caused by, there's a whole pile of different contributing factors. There's genetic factors, biological, um, personality. There could be environmental factors and actually some that I could control. And I, most of the time when I had my attacks, I felt out of control and no one taught me how, how to manage it. And, uh, so it, it really became a problem. It was, uh, I just felt like I was, um, always in danger. And you know, anxiety is, I try to explain to my clients now is that, you know, it's at one point back in the, you know, the stone ages, it was actually a good thing because, you know, we ran for our lives when we were in trouble. But when you feel like you're in trouble all the time and um, and you're, you're constantly on the fight, flight, freeze mode, it can become very problematic because you, you become isolated. Um, and then the cycle continues. Your, you know, the more you worry, the more the cycles reinforced and then you just gets worse and worse. And, uh, yeah, it was, it was very, very difficult.
Speaker 2 05:19 <inaudible> yeah. I, you know, one of the things that I've noticed about what you've told me about your story so far is that you've described a lot of physical symptoms and I think it's important for people to understand that. How often, uh, anxiety can, you know, of course it manifests in different behavioral ways. Um, you know, whether you are irritable or whether you're tired or whether you're, uh, you know, you're throwing temper tantrums, whatever, or argumentative, whatever that is. There's a lot of ways that manifests that way, but we haven't really talked about too much about how it manifests itself physically in so many different ways. And that's, I think that's an important point.
Speaker 3 05:56 Hmm. Yeah,
Speaker 4 05:58 no, no, for sure. And, uh, and you know, the, uh, the one area that was never taught to me, you know, by the doctor or, or I didn't even really know that therapists could treat this at the time. Um, I didn't know about cognitive behavioral therapy. CDT. I had no idea existed. And, um, and when I really started to wrap my head around ways to manage my anxiety, and that was, you know, really paying attention to my thoughts and how my thoughts and created the feeling even than in my feelings would then create, um, the behaviors that had me freeze or go into flight mode. Um, and then of course, your behaviors and we're getting very personal thoughts and the cycle just kept going. And, uh, and then I decided to do some research and I found an anxiety, uh, course that lasted two a two months. Right. And that was my, that was my lifesaver. So, so was that a course that that helped you or is that a course that educated you?
Speaker 3 07:01 It both. Yeah. So what, what it taught me and, and I now incorporate everything that I was taught into my own practice. The, the, the two really important pieces that I learned was the prevention part and the intervention part. The, um, the prevention part is, is really about getting your body more relaxed to getting, you know, um, and, and doing it every day to ensure that your anxiety stays at a lower level. Because as you know, when you're in an anxious, anxious mode, you feel like you're going a hundred miles an hour. And, and I had to retrain my body to slow down. Um, I did that through, uh, practicing a lot of diagrammatic breathing, Foursquare breathing, um, progressive muscle relaxation. Um, meditation, spending time in prayer that was really, really helpful is, you know, really asking God to help me manage all of the feelings and all of the thoughts that were haunting me and were in making me worry.
Speaker 3 08:10 So that the prevention part was really important and we spent a lot of time honing in on those skills to make sure that we, um, we learn how to breathe properly and to hold the deep breath then to and to teach the body how to breathe, especially when we were going into a panic mode. And then, um, the intervention piece was really, was really good too, because when I, when I could feel my anxiety rising when I be, um, like I just described earlier before a party or, um, you know, window, anticipate it on a highly threatening situation. Um, you, I, I learned how to perform a, a relaxation technique to try and calm down and then, uh, and try and manage the current situation by, by really, I'm restructuring and balancing my worrying thought. And, um, and also by exposing myself through the fear, cause a lot of times when we have anxiety, we're scared.
Speaker 3 09:05 We're scared to face the fear and we have to propose ourselves to, to it. And, uh, so that was the other piece of the puzzle is really, um, allowing myself to sit with that and know that the anxiety wasn't gonna take over and, and, and that I could manage it and it wasn't managing me. Right. Yeah. So CBT is really quite powerful and mindfulness is another very important, um, um, part of, uh, of what I try and help my clients with now. And that's really, you know, a lot of people confuse mindfulness of meditation. And it's actually about really keeping focused on apprentice moments, you know, and just accepting the worrying thoughts and not judging them and just kind of sitting with them and, and, uh, and not being so hard on ourselves and, you know, going okay. Oh, I'm ruminating right now. Okay. Well, all right. Let's just let this worry go. And I think, yeah. Okay. Nothing. Okay.
Speaker 2 10:04 I guess I'm just curious what, um, what, uh, what allowed you, or what inspired you to go from being essentially a patient to being a therapist?
Speaker 3 10:15 Yeah, yeah. How did that happen? Yeah, it's kind of a long story, but, um, I, when I was going through my infertility, I ended up doing a lot of, um, volunteer work, helping other patients who were going through a lot of the stressors and a lot of the treatments that I was going through at the time. And, um, I found myself, um, uh, using a lot of CBT to help, uh, the people that I was helping in that volunteer roles. Right. And I realized it was, it was something I really enjoyed doing and, um, I wanted to pass on, uh, all of my knowledge and all of the skills that help me and literally saved me, um, so that other people would be able to live fuller lives and not suffer like I did. Um, you know, it's, uh, I mean, you know, anxiety never goes away.
Speaker 3 11:08 I think everyone, you know, that has and has experienced, uh, an anxiety disorder and I'm sure most of our listeners today, um, are had it or how to keep variants, some, some, some form of debt. Um, it, you know, it doesn't go away completely. You have to manage it. You know, you're going to have moments where like, Oh my God, here we go. Uh, and you, you just have to see it and try and treat it, um, quicker and on the spot as opposed to letting it, you know, ride like a wave over you and before you know what you're having another panic attack, so you just manage it better.
Speaker 2 11:43 Yeah. That was one of my hardest realizations was, um, there and you know, I, I don't, I don't like this language saying there's no cure. Um, but it's just that, that's not what we should be endeavoring to do. Um, I feel like, you know, we need anxiety for many reasons. Um, but, uh, that for me it was a hard step to make. Realizing it was something I, that I kind of have to maintain for the rest of my life. Um, for some people, I think that's a psychological leap. How do you, how do you help people kind of get over that hurdle or do you find that to be a problem at all within your practice?
Speaker 3 12:18 Yeah, I mean, you, you know, you have to, you have to look at things. I always tell my clients, let's not treat anxiety like it's the enemy, you know, the type of tea party with it. And let's kind of manage it, can manage it. It's, it's, it's about learning how to problem solve and, you know, if there's unexpressed anger working through, let, what, you know, what boundaries do you need to set for yourself. A lot of people who have anxiety, what I noticed is they forfeit self care. They forget to work out. They forget to eat healthy. They get, they get so caught up in their worry that their self care goes out the window. So we, you have to bring that into, into their lifestyle and, and you know, and, and just finding more balance and, uh, and also getting a touch with their values, like what matters to them.
Speaker 3 13:03 And, and really honing in on the things that matter and, and, uh, and, and reminding them that it is something that's not going to take over their life, that they can actually manage it. And they always feel better knowing that they have tools that they can apply, uh, in between sessions. That it's not something that, um, they just talk about, but they can actually do something about it. And that was, that's the best part I think, of cognitive behavioral therapy is that you can actually look at someone's thoughts and tweak them and look at, at things in a more balanced way and not jump into a lot of the thinking traps that we get caught in. Like, you know, catastrophizing. That's the thing that I do all the time. Oh yeah. But fortune telling and why faking decided this or that mind reading mind rating. Perfectionism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fortune telling. Yeah. You know, Oh my God, this is going to happen. Yeah. You know, and it's just, it's really, you really believe it though. Like,
Speaker 2 14:04 Oh yeah, I've done it. I did a lot of fortune telling, leading up to, uh, this for sure.
Speaker 3 14:10 Yeah. Yeah, I bet. I bet. And then, and then when we finally get to the event, it's usually not so bad or when we, you know, but, you know, I don't want to diminish the real problems that exist in people's lives, you know, I mean, there are real anxieties and, you know, my sister reminds me of actual like, but this is a real problem and I, and I, I do agree that there are real, absolute, real problems that we can manage it at least with the skills to make it a little easier. Yeah. And a, and you know, and talking about it is so helpful going for therapy. Um, the Mindshift CBT app that anybody Canada has for people who have more mild to moderate levels of anxiety is fantastic. If you don't have it downloaded, it's fantastic. Um, you know, I've been very fortunate to have a great, um, supervisor and dr Judy Samara, who's one of the best psychologists in Canada and she's taught me a lot and it's been so helpful to know that she's not perfect.
Speaker 3 15:12 And that, you know, she has anxiety too. And to help me with, uh, when I experienced it and, you know, and, and she always reminds me it's good that we can relate to our clients. We can be empathetic and go, yeah, it's Fox having anxiety. I get it. Yeah. And being able to help them. So, you know, I, um, my goal is to just pass on my knowledge and to help as many people as I can through the tools that I've, I thought been blessed to have learned and, um, and, you know, and just, just, uh, passing on the, you know, we got to reduce the stigma to a lot of people are afraid to ask for help. Yeah. And, uh, so things like this, like having this tele, you know, that this, uh, way of sharing and promoting our stories. Yeah. So helpful. I think.
Speaker 2 16:02 Yeah. I think it's a, I think it's a, it's, it's a useful thing to do. Um, I, you know, I have a, a couple more, do you have a few more minutes? Are you okay for turning out good? Um, the, the one, one of the questions that I, that I always bump up against and I find curious or are, you know, I just don't know how, how this, how it's gonna work, but you mentioned the caveman brain, um, you know, which if people aren't, don't, aren't quite familiar with that. That's basically the fundamental set of, uh, you know, set of tools we have that we're established millennia ago, um, to deal with. What were the threats then? Um, you said fight, flight, freeze. Um, I guess what I'm wondering is, you know, we've seen society evolve in such a way, you know, let's say over the past 100 years. Um, and I, and I, there's this graph that I see in my head of society becoming more dense. Uh, all the, all kinds of different stressors that we have entered into our, into our existence. Aside from shelter, you know, um, food, warmth and making babies. Um, how, how do you think humans are doing? Like, do you think that's part of that? Like how far off are we from, from reconciling those two things? Are Willie ever reconcile those two things?
Speaker 3 17:18 Yeah, it's a good question. You know, I mean, obviously in this day and age, we, we have new stressors, different stressors than then, you know, back in the caveman days when, you know, they would, their anxiety with med to save their butts and so they wouldn't, so they wouldn't die from animal in the forest or wherever. Um, but now, you know, I, I think our stressors are obviously a lot different. Um, financial stressors, especially if you live in Vancouver, you know, I'd be to afford, you know, living here. Um, young, younger folks. I'm seeing more and more, uh, people in their twenties and early thirties reaching out for counseling because they, they're really having a difficult time, um, managing anxiety and managing life. And I think that, uh, the way to try and, and bridge this and help people is to give them these skills earlier on, perhaps in high school or in, uh, in the workplace where you're teaching people how to manage their anxiety, how to manage their stress and, uh, and so that it can translate into the personalized and they feel better and they're able to cope. Yeah. Because I just think that there's just, there's just more, and of course, social media doesn't help. There's people, you know, there's more accessibility to comparing ourselves to other people and then there's more bullying that happens because of that and, and more competition with, uh, you know, in the workplace. So it's just, it's, it can definitely be tougher for the, for the younger people.
Speaker 2 18:49 Yeah. Do you, do you, do you find, um, over the trajectory of your career, do you find that young people are more open to coming in and speaking to you?
Speaker 3 18:59 Yeah, yeah, I have noticed that and they're very comfortable in doing so. And, uh, I really, I take my hat off to, to the millennial generation because they're not afraid to go, you know what, I'm not feeling good. Something's wrong. And they, they really reach out for help. And, uh, I think that they set an excellent example to all the other generations that, uh, that it's okay. It's okay to just notice that you're not feeling a hundred percent yeah. And a, and to, um, go and get some help and, and, uh, and if therapists that, you know, that really knows how to treat anxiety disorders and panic disorders cause you don't have to suffer it. I mean, I'm speaking from over a decade of horrible, uh, experience of suffering. And I had, I known, I think, uh, my life would have changed dramatically if I, if I had the skills that I know now.
Speaker 2 19:50 Oh yeah. For sure. I mean, my, my first experiences were very young, but then, you know, it really hit me in that transitional age, a 17, 18, 19 in there, which seems pretty common. Um, for whatever reason, whether that's a societal or whether that's chemical, something that kicks in and does that to us. I, I don't know. Um, but even then it, you know, and that was, we're talking late, uh, late eighties, early nineties, and it took a long time just to even get a, a, you know, to get a diagnosis or get a name to be put on it. Um, and you know, luckily, um, I, you know, that, that informed me. I have kids now, I've got two kids that are teenagers, they're 17 and 14. Um, and, and, uh, I've always been, you know, I kind of used, I, I've called has been very open about mental health issues. And do you, do you find that parents are, are pretty open about it with their kids now too? Or do you or do you interact with parents much? I don't, I'm not quite sure how, if that's like that with you, if you worked with young people that are not,
Speaker 3 20:50 yeah, I, I treat usually a like older, older teams that, uh, um, adults, young adults and of course older adults, but, but the parents, um, they're a lot more hands on than city. Um, I, you know, my husband, I always laugh back in the day when we were, you know, would be, couldn't handle anxiety. You know, our, our parents would probably smack it against the side of the head and go ahead, deal with it.
Speaker 2 21:12 Yeah, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 3 21:15 Um, but now they're like, you know, what do you see really what, you know, and they definitely are more involved with their kids and I get a lot of calls from the mother or father calling about their, uh, their adults or their teen and wanting to get help for them and they pay for it and they support them through it. And so there's definitely more support and more, um, um, you know, more handholding. Maybe that's good and bad. You know, I was tried to discourage too much helicopter parenting, you know, I think that can be a problem sometimes for some teams where they're trying to discover the discover themselves without having their parents, uh, watch over everything. Right. But at the same time as good as they support them.
Speaker 2 21:58 Yeah, there's definitely a balance. And you know, that with me, my mum didn't know what was going on and she definitely supported me, uh, once we, once we figured all that out, but she was from that older generation. And when you mentioned that my, I had a, I had a, an uncle who missed an entire year of school because he had nerves. Um, he didn't go to school because he had nerves and we all know what that was at exit that that's, you know, he had anxiety. Um, it's just different how the language has changed. You know, I, my, my daughter, um, she, when she was in school, she had one, one friend who she particularly had problems with, um, and they went to counseling at school. They just went and checked themselves in with the counselor. And I thought, that's a big victory. I thought that's something something's happening.
Speaker 2 22:42 Right. D do you think that will have a trickle down effect as, as, you know, we, as we progress as I guess as a species, but societaly and economically, you know, as these kids come into their own and become older, do you think that they're gonna that they're gonna help kind of turn the system in that, in the direction that it needs to go in terms of, you know, more funding? We had a caller earlier talking about, uh, Bruno was talking about how, you know, the, we need free mental health care. Yeah. Uh, do you envision a world with that at this now? Or what's your vision for that? I hope
Speaker 3 23:17 so. I hope so. You know, I mean, I, uh, I think a mental disability is, is, you know, um, it impacts obviously the economy because if you can't work and your, and you, you can't go in because you're not feeling well. Uh, it's gonna affect the bottom line of a company and how well they, they run. Um, so, no, I, I agree there's, there, I think there needs to be funding. I think therapists need to be covered. I mean, I have, um, as a clinical <inaudible> I have climbed to come in and like, Oh, I only have five sessions this year and I'm looking at, yeah, for kidding me, five, that's not enough. Leave, you know,
Speaker 2 23:57 12, 12, you know, 1224 would be great, you know.
Speaker 3 24:01 Yeah. It's not enough. It's ridiculous, you know? So these insurance plans and, um, are, are just the, the whole healthcare system has to change. It really does need to support the growing population, um, where disorders are a lot more prevalent. And, um, you know, it's, it's very common. I mean, in any given year we have, you know, one in five people in Canada who are experiencing some sort of a mental health problem. That's a lot.
Speaker 2 24:31 Yeah. 20%. It sure is.
Speaker 3 24:33 It's a lot. So, you know, why are we not helping them? Why every not providing programs that are, that are free of charge to, you know, so it's, that's why I think it's so great. What even when anxiety Canada is doing by offering pre-ops and to offer that to the two people who can't afford a traditional therapy.
Speaker 2 24:54 Yeah. Do you think that, um, do you think that, you know, with, within the healthcare system what they're not providing health for health care for now, let's say mental health that that does, they do end up paying for it later. Um, yeah. So you think there's a real correlation there between people who have mental health issues and then those spawning into what they consider to be issues that, that it's okay to cover?
Speaker 3 25:20 No, exactly. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, cause anxiety and other disorders and mental illness can, you know, affect the suicide rates and, uh, you know, it's, it's costing us as tax payers to, to, um, to try and, and help all these people and, and uh, and this Boyd and workplace and, and, and the impact on society. It's, uh, it's definitely gonna it's gonna circle around and cost, um, effect affect how we, um, how things are, are gonna if it is going to impact it.
Speaker 2 25:57 Yeah. I, I'd be really interested knowing the stats of people who have panic attacks, who think they're having heart attacks going to emergency. I'd be interested in knowing that statistic alone, you know, because I've had three guests on today who said they thought they were having a heart attack and they went to emergency. Yeah. And, uh, and that's, you know, that's quite a, that's, that's quite a stat within the fact that I've, you know, interviewed maybe 25 people at this point. Um, there's another thing you touched on that I really want to touch on quickly before we, before we say goodbye. Um, and I mentioned, you know, just tr, just ways to cope with it outside of ways to cope with anxiety outside of, you know, the treatments that we're talking about. Cognitive behavioral therapy and such. And I taught was talking to one a gentleman earlier about stubbornness. And one thing I noticed you mentioned, which I think was important, seem to be related to faith. Yeah. Um, can you tell me a little bit about your experience with that? Because I think it's an important piece to this.
Speaker 3 26:55 Yeah, I agree. No, I absolutely agree. I think faith is, um, you know, I, you know, mind body spirit has, if we don't have faith and, uh, I believe in, in, uh, in God it's, it's, uh, it can absolutely, um, affect us and, and you know, it's there, it's, it's, it's free, uh, and it's, uh, it can be incorporated it to, um, you know, when we're spending that time and, and prevention and the intervention stages, if, you know, you can pray and it's really focused and accept what is in there, which is an also letting go of a lot of stuff that we can't control. Um, and that's a really comforting feeling to know that you can just release and give it to God. Um, and, uh, so I absolutely support that and encourage people, um, if they have faith to, to, to incorporate it into their own, um, uh, treatment plan if they can cause it, it what makes a difference. And I see that with clients, my clients who have faith and those that don't really, I do see a difference.
Speaker 2 28:01 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's interesting. Um, do you think, you know, when you mentioned prayer, do you think there's anything, let's say somebody that they, you know, they, they don't have a faith or traditional faith, like we know, um, you talked, you talk about prayer. Um, are there aspects of prayer that, or symbol that you would say are similar to perhaps mindfulness or meditation? Like do they have a similar outcome in some, some instances?
Speaker 3 28:25 Yeah. Well, you know, like mindfulness is more of an act. It's more of just kind of staying really present and, and you know, I think what prayer does is it, it allows us to just kind of sit with, with the thought. And, and, and release it rather than ruminate. Right. You know what I mean? A, it gets us more still in the moment and just really, um, this state stay in the moment and sitting with what's going on.
Speaker 2 29:04 <inaudible> um, yeah I think yeah, those are, yeah, those are all important points. Um, I appreciate you taking the time. You and you actually took extra time with us. One of our, one of our guests didn't, didn't uh, manage to make it on so you really filled in there admirably admirably and I really appreciate it. Yeah. So, um, thanks for being a part of this and a Rita and we really appreciate all the help you do. You deal with us and I really appreciate you, your candor and your sharing your experience here.
Speaker 5 29:34 Aw, thanks Donna. I thank you for doing this for us as well. Good luck everybody. Bye bye. <inaudible>
Speaker 1 29:45 thanks for listening to our anxiety stories, the anxiety Canada podcast with John Bateman. Check out anxiety canada.com for more anxiety resources including our app Mindshift CBT. And if you like what you hear, please consider making a donation. This podcast is made possible by listeners like you. Until next time
Speaker 0 30:05 <inaudible>.
