Episode Transcript
Mark Antczak: Hi, I'm your host, Mark Antczak, registered clinical counsellor and clinical educator and you're listening to Anxiety Canada's Our Anxiety Stories podcast, The OCD Series. Each week, we'll dive into personal stories, expert insights and practical tips to help you understand and manage OCD. Whether you or someone you love is affected by OCD, this podcast aims to provide support, education and a sense of community. Join us as we navigate this journey together, one podcast at a time.
Today, I'm speaking with Justin Mackenzie, a 26-year-old Calgarian, who's rewriting the narrative of living with OCD. Embracing life in remission, Justin is on a mission to inspire those around him with a story of resilience and resourcefulness. He's got a knack for turning life's curveballs into opportunities, showcasing the power of determination and creative thinking.
When he's not exploring Calgary's craft beer scene or on the ballfield, Justin advocates mental health awareness and is eager to share his experience and support others on their journeys. Welcome, Justin.
Justin Mackenzie: Thanks for having me, Mark. This has been a long time coming for us, so this is going to be fun.
Mark Antczak: It has indeed. Speaking of curveballs, it sounds like you've got a little bit of a softball game coming up this weekend?
Justin Mackenzie: Yeah, coaching ball. It's our fall ball season, so out here in Calgary, it's what we can get. But I was talking to Rebecca earlier and we've actually been pretty lucky out here in Calgary with the weather we've gotten, so taking advantage of that and knocking on wood at every opportunity, but Thanksgiving weekend is going to be the last weekend, then shutting it down for the winter, so that usually means winter is here.
Mark Antczak: There you go. With any OCD journey, it's quite representative of the curveball that it often throws at you, so I'm really curious if you could just dive right in. Justin, if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about just what your OCD journey has been like. When did it start? How would you describe it?
Justin Mackenzie: Yeah, no, I think, for me, it was always there and it was just figuring out what exactly it was, whether it was general anxiety, whether it was OCD. I would probably say I was diagnosed early, early teens, so that would have been probably grade seven, grade eight, around there, plus or minus a few years, but OCD journey, it was really, really debilitating for me for most of high school, a lot of missing days, a lot of missing some activities that I really truly love because of OCD and it is one of those diseases where everyone says they have some sort of OCD, but it was the real and true OCD that was going on in my head from probably young teen to ...I still experience it, I would say. I don't think it will ever truly disappear. It's just how you cope with it and I've, over the years, gotten so many great tools from so many great people and so much great support that I feel really, really blessed about that. So, where I am now is hard to believe looking back. And as we talked about it, revisiting some of those stories, it's been an interesting journey, but I'm sure if you talk to my parents, they could probably tell you a few interesting stories from over the years. But, it's been an interesting journey, but it's been a really fulfilling journey and I think it's made me definitely stronger as a person.
Mark Antczak: It really sounds like it's been part of who you've been for such a long time and really describing that notion of, "Here's this thing that I have to deal with. Is this generalized anxiety? Is this OCD?" really even just showcasing there how often those two types of anxiety overlap and often feed into each other. So, you mentioned one thing that you didn't have the "typical kind of OCD", so referencing those anecdotes that people make of like, "Oh, I'm a little OCD," about how they order things or how they clean things. Could you walk us through the way that your OCD presented or what it looked like?
Justin Mackenzie: Yeah, so for me, it wasn't the turning off and on light switches. It wasn't that OCD. It was more the mental thoughts. I use this example quite a bit that say I'm driving down the highway and my brain goes, "Hey, what would happen if you drove off the road right now?" So it was that and it was the intrusive thoughts, would probably be the main culprit of the personal OCD and it was to the point where that was the thoughts I was having. I wasn't able to contribute my own thoughts and that's the point where it just became super debilitating and it was just worry after worry after worry after worry. And it took away from a lot of what I wanted to do in high school and all that kind of stuff. So, it was definitely more the intrusive thoughts for my journey.
Mark Antczak: Right. So when we talk about what an intrusive thought is, it's just unwanted thought that really just drills its way in there. It doesn't want to go. And I think the example that you gave of driving and just like, "Oh, what if I just drove in the opposing lane?" or, "What if I drove off this cliff?" I think it's a really relatable one because I think a lot of folks will have that intrusive thought. Would you say that your intrusive thoughts followed any specific pattern or theme, or even in that example that you had shared, what made it so scary to have that thought? Because a lot of folks will have that thought and unconsciously think, "Oh, well, that's weird, but anyways, moving on with my life." But it sounds like it was quite different for you.
Justin Mackenzie: Yeah, I think it was a lot of the idea of harming others or harm coming to myself were what ... Whether that was physical harm, whether that was internal harm, such as getting diseases or ... A lot of growing up was I was convinced every single time that I felt hurt or something, that I can't. That was just my thing. So there was a lot of trips to the doctor's office and I think, obviously, the reassurance part of it was big, but it wasn't until I was able to do it by myself without the reassurance of others that I really started finding headway to start to combat this thing.
So it was a lot of intrusive thoughts relating around hurting people, people hurting me. Living in BC, a lot of it came around. I live in a small town just outside of Vancouver. A lot of it came around the big earthquake that's supposed to hit-
Mark Antczak: The Big One.
Justin Mackenzie: In school, it would be talked about a lot. We would do earthquake drills, so I would stay home because, "What if today's the day?" That narrative was a big one. That took up a lot of my thoughts and, "What if this harms me?" It came back to that self-harm thing again.
Mark Antczak: Totally.
Justin Mackenzie: Yeah.
Mark Antczak: Great. And it's a surprising amount of times I hear that one, even in my own sessions when I'm providing therapy for others, this idea of The Big One or this extraordinary event, but it really sounds like a lot of the themes that you were struggling with related to harm and safety, it split often between you harming other people. So, noting on that ego dystonic nature, "These thoughts are scary because they're so opposite to who I am as a person. I care about people," and it sounds like the other half were a lot of ways that you could be harmed by external factors.
Justin Mackenzie: For sure. And that would kinda even include, there was a bit of a germ epidemic going on in my life, and unfortunately, I feel bad for my poor brother. He sometimes got the tag of he was considered dirty in my head, so I would stray away from him for a little bit, poor guy. And then, there would be certain people in my life through certain times that just like, "Don't want to touch them because they'll cause harm to me internally," that mentality as well. It really sucked when it came into the personal life like family-wise because those are your people. So, unfortunately, when those people are considered no-fly zones by your mental capacity, it's not fun. And I'm sure I can imagine, on their end, it's even less fun. So that part really, really sucked growing up.
Mark Antczak: Absolutely. So you already started to note a couple of the impacts, and as we've mentioned in a number of our other episodes, one of the big resounding criteria of what constitutes someone getting an OCD diagnosis is the way it impacts their life or how much it limits them in doing either things that are really important or things that are really necessary for them to do. And it sounds like, in your case, sometimes you'd be avoiding school. It sounds like there was a lot of worry, maybe you'd avoid hanging out with some friends. It even sounds like some folks in your life were labelled as dirty or just contaminated, so you would just physically avoid touching them or even maybe even talking to them, I'm guessing.
Justin Mackenzie: I think avoidance is a great word for that.
Mark Antczak: Mmmm…What are some of the other ways that you really saw OCD chipping away at your life? What other areas of your life did you notice it in? So how did it cost you, I guess?
Justin Mackenzie: That's a really good question. Definitely school-wise, academics, whether it would be stressing out and redoing projects, whether it would be struggling to get things in on time, struggling to study because my thoughts were overtaking any opportunity I had to actually learn, but just the everyday things that you don't think about. It was going to school. Sometimes I wouldn't even be able to go to some of the sports that I loved playing growing up. Sports were a big, big part of my life, especially in the summertime, played pretty competitive ball back in the day. So, sometimes it would intrude in that and I wasn't able to perform the best of my ability.
So like I mentioned before, it was getting to the point where it was taken away from the things that I really, really love to do and the people I really, really loved. So, that was probably the hardest part of dealing with OCD growing up.
Mark Antczak: Right, right. So we see it impacting your relationships, it's impacting your academics, it's impacting your ability to grow and develop through some skill building. It sounds like just so many different kind of avenues are basically just getting completely obliterated. And I imagine there was probably a point where you reached of no return where you were just like, "Oh my God, I'm really in over my head here." Do you remember what that point was like?
Justin Mackenzie: I guess I'm hooped unfortunately, "This is what life is going to be like and I guess I'm just going to have to deal with it," and that was a really, really low point. As you can imagine, when those feelings start to get in, it's hard to get out of those feelings. So I'm super thankful that, over the years, I've been able to scratch and claw my way out of that place for sure, but, yeah, man, it's not fun.
Mark Antczak: Right. So you've already mentioned that avoidance really resonated with you and that was one of those more specific compulsions where we just didn't face the scary thing or we didn't do something because we're worried it would lead to something else. What are some of the other kind of common compulsions that you remember? You mentioned reassurance was a pretty big one that you used.
Justin Mackenzie: Reassurance was massive. Just other people telling me that, "It's going to be okay," just hearing it, it was a big one. For germs, it was washing hands a lot, ton of washing hands, scrubbing myself clean, but yeah, I would say reassurance was the major, major one. And I don't know what it was, it was just hearing it from a different person's voice that ... Well, I mean I still, I still find, I do, everyone has some sort of reassurance, everyone like to hear, "It's going to be okay." So, it was just one of those things that I was able to get out of people, especially my parents were really helpful in reassurance, but there came a point where reassurance was only feeding the beast, unfortunately. So it wasn't until we figured out that reassurance actually wasn't maybe the greatest thing if we're trying to turn this thing around that we need to tackle and eliminate, would be a good way to put that.
Mark Antczak: Got you. So imagining from your parents' perspective, so here they have their son that they see really struggling, they're really trying to help you in any way they can. I think often a conversation that I hear and a lot of folks kind default to is, "Oh, this person really needs relief. This person really just wants to know that it's going to be okay," or, "This person wants to know that their mole looks okay," or whatever the reassurance piece may be. And we think that we're helping when we actually later realize that reassurance is a really common compulsion that we have to train out of people that are supporting you in this case. And I'm guessing the amount of reassurance you were asking your parents probably led to you seeking out additional support at some point where they thought, "Holy crap, I don't know what else we can do. We're giving him nonstop reassurance."
Justin Mackenzie: Yeah, and obviously, there were some people, similar to how I'd take some people as dirty, or for example, as I mentioned before, there were some people that were my reassurance people, The reassurance blanket was cast over some specific individuals and that they were my go-tos. And I'm sure that definitely took a toll on them as well. Because as you mentioned, all they want to do is help, but in this certain situation, helping actually does the opposite for OCD, which is really, really hard.
Mark Antczak: Totally. And it's a hard line to walk, because on one hand, you want to be able to validate, you want to be able to be there and say like, "Hey, I can see that you're really struggling. I can see that this is really, really hard for you," but then also allowing folks to sit in a bit of that uncertainty, which we know is so important in that exposure piece.
Justin Mackenzie: Definitely.
Mark Antczak: So using that as a bit of a segue, I'm really curious, so when you started accessing supports, it sounds like your parents played a pretty big role in getting you set up with folks that were able to support you. What has support looked like for you, whether it's in the realm of your parents doing something specific? What does professional support look like, maybe psycho pharm or medication? Would love to hear a bit more about that.
Justin Mackenzie: Yeah, no, my parents throughout the whole process have been just rockstars and I'm super, super thankful that they have been as supportive as they can and as they have. I don't think I'd be what I'm doing today and living where I am because I could barely get out of my own home in BC and now I'm living in a different province, so I would stamp that as a success in itself.
Mark Antczak: Totally.
Justin Mackenzie: But my parents, it started when we were trying to figure out what the heck this thing was. We would go to Children's Hospital in Vancouver and go to different professionals and be like, "What is ..." because at this time, anxiety was a thing, but it wasn't as prevalent as it is today even and that wasn't even that long ago. So it was just trying to figure out what it is, whether it was ADD, it was at one point or OCD, but then we didn't know what OCD was. It's like, "He's not organized," and it's like, "Well, it's not quite that." And then the snowball kept rolling. My parents got me into a couple of classes at Children's Hospital with The Worry Dragon Program when I was younger. So that's more of a group session.
And then we started doing individual sessions that I got over, as I got older in North Vancouver. So that was the one-on-one sessions and we would go out, and since I was afraid of germs, we'd go out to the Lonsdale Quay and have to eat candy off a public toilet, which even now is just like, "Wow, that's a lot."
Mark Antczak: Truthfully, that's one of my favourite exposure stories that I get to share because I used to be a behavioural assistant, and when I think back to some of the most wild exposures I had to facilitate, I remember it was going into specific bathrooms and being like, "All right, here's a gummy, let's go." And I'd have to do it once or twice with them to be able to lean into it. I think the thing for viewers and listeners to know about that particular exercise, that's never meant to be a pleasant thing. It's always going to be this really gross from the perspective of contamination and OCD. It was a really important exercise, I imagine, when you look back at it, right?
Justin Mackenzie: Yeah, for sure. It's almost like an overcorrection.
Mark Antczak: 100%.
Justin Mackenzie: Now that I'm more comfortable telling my stories to friends and stuff, I tell that one and they're like, "I'm sorry, what?"
Mark Antczak: 100%.
Justin Mackenzie: Yeah, It's good, but my parents kind of pushed me in the right direction. I think I would've definitely crumbled without them and gone into my little hole, but they got me there. My mom would drive me every Wednesday to North Vancouver, which from Ladner was an hour, at least an hour and a half. So, it's looking back at that, just realizing how thankful I've got to be with the support systems I've had and then the doctors and counsellors along the way have been super supportive in this journey.
Mark Antczak: Absolutely. I'm definitely hearing a lot of that gratitude and I think it sounds like you have had such an amazing network that's been able to help you figure out what's going on. It's been able to put some labels on it, give you some structure. And I think one thing that you really pointed out was just how much OCD treatment has changed even in the last 10 to 15 years because BC Children's has been around for a chunk of time, their OCD program, but as far as what we knew about what to do with OCD, we've made leaps and bounds in the last 15 years alone. So, it's so amazing that you were able to be in BC and access the program that they had there.
Justin Mackenzie: Gosh, I can't even imagine because probably the last full sessions I did was before I moved out to Calgary in 2016. So, I can only imagine how much things have even changed since then and that's really encouraging that it's being a specialized and taken care of as an individual illness.
Mark Antczak: And we've got quite a ways to go as we talk about in other episodes about just public funding and being able to get more folks access to those resources, but I'm really curious, so it sounds like you've really gotten a chance to nibble on a lot of different professionals worth of support. Given that you're in remission or you're in a maintenance phase now where OCD is basically managed, I'm wondering, when you look back at some of those years, what are some of the biggest pieces of nuggets of wisdom that you remember or would be able to share with some of our viewers that help you today?
Justin Mackenzie: One phrase that was always used throughout the journey was, "This too shall pass." It's one of those things where you're sitting in that moment and it's like, "I don't know if this is ever going to leave my head," and it feels like it is just a 100% uphill battle and it's being able to ground yourself and center yourself and separate yourself, I would say, from your thoughts and being able to realize that, "This too shall pass." I would say that is a big one and I'm just trying to recollect here, Mark, about somebody-
Mark Antczak: if I could even ask a follow up, because one of those pieces is I think so pertinent, this idea of separating yourself from your thoughts. We know that when we try and push a thought away, when we try and get rid of a thought, it's going to come rebounding back like a boomerang and a brick to the face, but I'm curious, what do you mean when you say separating yourself from your thoughts? I'm curious.
Justin Mackenzie: I think what I mean is there is the individual person and there's the OCD and I think one thing that my parents would say to me a lot is, "This is not you. This is the OCD," which was a really good method of trying to differentiate the two and it changes the narrative from, "OCD is living with you," from, "You're living with OCD," if that makes sense.
Mark Antczak: Yeah. It's subtle, but it's so true, isn't it?
Justin Mackenzie: Yeah, no, it is and that just clicked for me just now. So that was actually really beneficial in being able to separate those two. Because if you're thinking of it as one collective unit, it's going to look like a big uphill battle. But if you're able to get there and separate those two, I think that's a huge step in the right direction.
Mark Antczak:Totally. So I'm hearing a couple of steady streams where one of them is first and foremost acknowledging, "Okay, this thing that I'm having, this thought that I'm having, it is an OCD thought," a little bit of externalization, a little bit of, "This isn't me. That's OCD," and it also sounds like there's that recognition of, "This sucks right now, but this isn't how it's always going to be. This is going to pass. It always does pass." Sounds like there's a little bit of acceptance and a little bit of that remembering of, "Don't react to it. Just sit with it until it goes away," kind of thing.
Justin Mackenzie: And it's easier said than done, especially in that time, but even if you can just turn one little part of that negative thought into a positive and then it slowly just keeps chipping away at, it makes the world a difference. And I know, I know, if I said that to my former self right now, I'd be like, "Here, a maniac, this sucks." But it is one of those things, right? As soon as you separate those two, it becomes so much easier.
Mark Antczak: Yeah, no, it’s such an important point, and truly, I think this is the interesting thing is we've become so far from just doing exposure when it comes to OCD because exposure is really, really important as we know. Sometimes you got to eat a gummy bear off of a toilet to really help yourself, but there's so many other pieces that go beyond just sitting in the fear where we have to think through some of these things like the one you just mentioned like, "OCD is living with me, not the other way around and this isn't me. That's the OCD."
Justin Mackenzie: Yeah, for sure. And Sometimes You Got to Eat a Gummy Bear Off a Toilet is a good name for the podcast actually. That's great.
Mark Antczak: Sometimes You Got to Eat a Gummy Bear Off a Toilet.
Justin Mackenzie: It sounds so good. You got to do it, man.
Mark Antczak: Brilliant. Well, so nearing the end here, Justin, I'm really just so inspired by the journey you've been on and all the active decisions you've made to really fight back against OCD. I'm going to have a bit of a cheesy moment here, but I'm wondering, if you had the opportunity to go back and talk to yourself as a kid, the kid that was really struggling at the peak, at his lowest, lowest point, I'm wondering, what are some of the words that you would share not just to yourself, but also to your parents at the time? Because I think both of those would be really, really helpful to reflect on.
Justin Mackenzie: I don't know, word to parents is, "I'm sorry for putting you through that," but I know they don't feel that way at all. They were amazing. And to myself, I would say ... What would I say to my former self? I would just describe my life currently because I think a lot of the things that I'm doing in my life currently, my younger self wouldn't probably think that would ever happen. Moving away, finding a really good group of friends, playing and coaching baseball, finding a fiancee. That's probably a big one too. But there's a lot of things that I didn't think were humanly possible for me, unfortunately, and it's just one of those things. So just going back and telling my younger self, "To keep your head up, bud." So that would be the words of wisdom that I would pass on.
Mark Antczak: Beautiful. That notion of, "Keep on fighting. Good things are coming. It's not always going to be this bad."
Justin Mackenzie: For sure. That's correct.
Mark Antczak: Thank you so, so much for all your words and just being able to share some of your experience. Truly, I think one of the reasons why we created this podcast is because we know so many folks are so alone in their journeys. They are the Teenage Justins that haven't found BC Children's yet and they're just really, really struggling and they don't know what to do. And so I'm so grateful that you've been able to share your experience and hopefully provide just a little bit of hope for them and for those that are listening.
Justin Mackenzie: For sure.
Mark Antczak: I want to leave the final note to you. Are there any final thoughts that you'd like to share to any listeners, whether it's those suffering from OCD, those supporting those with OCD? Anything you'd like to wrap up on?
Justin Mackenzie: No, thanks, Mark, for having me on and for those kind words. It was a lot of fun getting to know you over the past little bit and sharing my story with you. And it's even just talking to you right now that so people go through this, you're not alone, and as soon as you kind of figure that out as well, it becomes easier because you're not alone. There's millions of people in this world suffering from all sorts of mental illnesses and it almost has become this odd community of people working together to fight this and it's so awesome from building to what it has become and I'm just happy I am where I am today and I got to share hopefully for some of those struggling out there that it does get better. Just hang in there, keep fighting and you will get over that hump and it too shall pass.
Mark Antczak: Testament to the work you've put into your journey and truly really inspiring words to share. Thank you so much, Justin. Really, really appreciate you joining us today.
Justin Mackenzie: Awesome. Thanks, Mark.
Mark Antczak: All right, folks, thanks for listening to Our Anxiety Stories, the OCD series. If you'd like to support this podcast or Anxiety Canada, please go to anxietycanada.com. Until next time.
